New book on '70s educational children's TV (including "Schoolhouse Rock!")

In February, the versatile, prolific Vanity Fair writer David Kamp reached out to introduce himself, which delighted me not only because I've done the same with other authors many times. One of the perkiest perks of the job!

He kindly alerted me to his upcoming book, which had notched at least one starred review  and is indeed in my wheelhouse: Sunny Days: The Children's Television Revolution That Changed America, which focuses on now-iconic series such as Sesame Street that launched or came to prominence in the 1970s.

David used my Schoolhouse Rock! interviews as a source, and I was won over all over again when I saw the cheekiness of this excerpt from his bibliography:

Many of us feel we could use more sunny days these days, so I am optimistic that this book will find its eager audience. I wish David all the best with it, and hope our paths cross in person before long.

“Schoolhouse Rock” interview: singer Lori Lieberman

Introduction to the Schoolhouse Rock interview series (including the list of interviewees).

How old were you when you sang “The Great American Melting Pot” (1977)?

I was 20. It was the first time I had been hired to sing! The production company flew me from LA to NY and put me up at a nice hotel for three days.

What else were you doing professionally at the time?

I had just completed my first LP for Capitol Records and was preparing to go on my first tour…it was a time of firsts!

Where were you living at the time?

Los Angeles.

Were you already aware of Schoolhouse Rock when you were hired?

I was not really aware of Schoolhouse Rock before I received their call. I had been raised in Switzerland, so it had not crossed my radar.

How were you hired?

The production team got in touch with my managers and we talked about it; it was something I was excited about.

Did you have any say in which song you got to sing?

I was presented with “The Great American Melting Pot,” which was written for my voice.

Did you make any suggestions for the song?

Absolutely not—it was perfect. Lynn Ahrens, who wrote it, was incredibly astute and kind.

Why didn’t you sing any other Schoolhouse Rock songs?

I was really busy performing and recording.

Does that mean they asked you to do more?

No, I wasn’t asked!

Any funny stories from the recording?

Gosh, I don’t remember anything during the recording of the song that was funny other than, knowing me as I was then, I always sang better with a handful of peanut M&Ms during a break—nothing like a good old fashioned milkshake, too! I broke all the rules of your more traditional rules of vocalizing!

What did you think of the song?

I thought it was great. My grandparents also came from Russia, so the song really meant something to me.

What did you think of the finished animated musical short?

I thought the animation was wonderful. It really brought it to life!

What were you paid?

I don’t really remember.

Have you had any fun Schoolhouse Rock moments since (i.e. a reaction when someone you meet discovers you had a role in it)?

Well, actually, everyone [was] pretty shocked when they realize[d] I sang the song—my children especially!

What are you doing these days?

I’m in the process of recording my 16th CD. I’ve continued to write, record, and perform. I [am touring] Europe in June 2014 and I have a big concert at Carnegie Hall on November 8th—a retrospective of my four decades in this business.

Where do you live?

California.

What did your kids think of your Schoolhouse Rock song?

I have three of my own kids and five stepkids; they [all] thought the song was great!

What has been your career highlight so far?

Besides having written a poem about seeing Don McLean at the Troubadour in LA that became [the song] “Killing Me Softly,” which I recorded on my first LP for Capitol Records, I think the highlights are performing at the beautiful and legendary theater the Carre in Amsterdam, the Grammy Museum in LA, and the upcoming Carnegie Hall performance.

What did you think when you first heard from me?

I was interested in your email about the genesis of the Schoolhouse Rock song.

Has anyone else ever interviewed about this? If so, when and for what publication?

I’ve never been interviewed about the song before.

How do you look back on the experience?

It was a great experience. The people were wonderful, the atmosphere was very professional, and I felt really good about it.

Anything you’d like to add?

Only that it’s been a pleasure revisiting the early days with you, and I look forward to connecting in the future.

“Schoolhouse Rock” interview: singer Essra Mohawk

Introduction to the Schoolhouse Rock interview series (including the list of interviewees).

Essra’s Schoolhouse Rock hits:

• “Interjections” (1974)
• “Sufferin’ ‘til Suffrage” (1975)
• “Mother Necessity” (1977)

How old were you when you sang the first of your three Schoolhouse Rock songs, “Interjections!”?

26.

What else were you doing professionally at the time?

I was working on my third LP which was released on Elektra/Asylum and produced by the late Tommy Sellers.

Where were you living at the time?

I moved back home to Philadelphia from L.A. in 1974 and stayed in Philly till September of ‘77 when I moved back to L.A. So from ‘74 -’77, I was doing a lot of session work in New York City. I also recorded my fourth LP in New York during that period.

Were you already aware of Schoolhouse Rock when you were hired?

You know, I don’t really remember. I believe I was. It was 40 years ago. I know I was glad to be on board!

How were you hired? Were you hired for all three of your songs at the same time?

Like I said, I was doing a lot of sessions and one producer would tell another producer about me and that’s how I got hired to sing on various projects. If they were looking for a female vocalist who could learn fast and sing with a lot of muscle in any genre with a large range, they hired me. In answer to your second question, no. I was booked to sing on three separate occasions for the three songs I sang on.

Did you have any say in which songs you got to sing?

As a hired hand, one sings what is put in front of [her]. There is no choice in such a situation. The music is very specific and worked out to go along with a storyboard that becomes the animation. A lot of time and effort goes into planning a recording session. Especially when it’s part of a network TV show. It’s not like people getting together to jam.

Did you make any suggestions for any of the songs?

I was given a lot of freedom concerning my vocal approach, but they did, after all, hire me for the way I sing. I added those really high notes at the end of the songs.

Was any song your favorite to sing?

Definitely “Sufferin’ ‘til Suffrage”! The song lent itself to my singing style and the subject matter (women’s right to vote) was something I could get passionate about!

What did you think of the finished animated musical shorts?

They always did a great job!

What were you paid?

AFTRA scale.

Have you had any fun Schoolhouse Rock moments since (i.e. a reaction when someone you meet discovers you had a role in it)?

This happens quite often, though folks are usually more impressed by the fact that I was in Frank Zappa’s band. There is one experience I had with a young girl in the neighborhood. She lives a couple doors down from me and left an invitation in my mailbox to come see her in her school’s presentation of Schoolhouse Rock. It wasn’t easy to break away from all I had on my plate at the time, but I made it a point to be there for my young neighbor’s performance. Sitting in the school auditorium watching these young children perform the songs from Schoolhouse Rock so many decades after we recorded them filled my heart and brought tears to my eyes.

What are you doing these days?

Everything I’ve always done: writing songs, recording, singing, and playing. Also, I do lots of interviews and I have a book in progress.

Where do you live?

Nashville.

What has been your career highlight so far?

Too many to mention. To list a few: being in the Mothers of Invention [Frank Zappa’s band], getting a top pop hit “Change of Heart” recorded by Cyndi Lauper, having one of my songs “Stronger Than the Wind” recorded by Tina Turner, playing in France and Germany, my first time performing in Europe in 2011.

What did you think when you first heard from me?

Yet another interview. There’s so much work to do. Can I even find the time. If I got paid for these things, I’d be rich!

Has anyone else ever interviewed about this? If so, when and for what publication?

Yes. Too many to remember. Never with as many questions as you have.

How do you look back on the experience?

So busy in the present, not a lot of time to look back. Dylan said, “Don’t look back,” but sometimes I have to in order to answer journalists’ questions. Of course, I’m glad to have been a part of Schoolhouse Rock and proud that I could contribute to the education of America just by singing.

Essra and Bob Dorough 2010

1/26/25 addendum: Today I learned that Essra passed away 12/11/23.

Next: Lori Lieberman.

“Schoolhouse Rock” interview: songwriter Dave Frishberg

Introduction to the Schoolhouse Rock interview series (including the list of interviewees).

 
How old were you when you began writing for Schoolhouse Rock?

In my 40s.

What else were you doing professionally at the time?

Playing piano with bands, jazz group, singers, recording dates.

1974

Where were you living at the time?

Los Angeles.

What did you think of the Schoolhouse Rock concept when you first heard it?

Anything that Bob Dorough was connected with was usually excellent.

How were you hired? Were you originally hired to write multiple songs, or just “I’m Just a Bill”?

As I recall, I was hired to write one song.

Did you have any say in which topics you got to write about?

I was usually given a choice of several topics.

Did you propose any songs/topics that were rejected?

Yes. I wrote “Prepositions Are Lonesome Words.” The topic had already been covered. [“Busy Prepositions,” 1993]

How long would it take you, on average, to write a Schoolhouse Rock song? Did you do your own research or were you presented with which facts to include?

I did my own research. Usually finished a song in 2-3 days. Dorough’s orchestrations then suited my ideas beautifully.

How hard was it to explain legislature to children in writing “I’m Just a Bill”?

I find good songs are difficult to write for both children and adults, no matter what the topic.

Which Schoolhouse Rock song you wrote was your favorite and why?

My prepositions song was my favorite. Too bad they didn’t need it.

What did you think of the finished animated musical shorts?

I was impressed with the quality of all Schoolhouse Rock products.

How were you paid—salary, flat fee per song, royalty per song, other?

Flat fee per song.

At what point did you realize “I’m Just a Bill” in particular had evolved from one of a series of an animated musical shorts into a classic of pop culture?

I regarded the whole series with respect and admiration.

Did you in any way foresee its popularity?

Of course not. It’s nearly impossible to foresee matters of popularity.

What do you consider your career highlight to date?

I have no idea. It’s a miracle that I’m still interested in music.

Where do you live?

Portland, OR.

If you have kids/grandkids, what did they think of your Schoolhouse Rock songs?

My kids were duly impressed. They never seemed particularly interested in my music.

Has anyone else ever interviewed about this? If so, when and for what publication?

The Schoolhouse Rock songs are mentioned in many interviews that I’ve had.

Do you still have any ongoing connection (professionally or personally) to Schoolhouse Rock?

Not really. Twenty-five or 30 years have passed. Dorough and I have been friends since long before Schoolhouse Rock existed.

Have you appeared at any fan conventions to sign autographs? If not, would you?

I would comply with appropriate requests.

What is your perspective on the longevity and legacy of Schoolhouse Rock?

Congratulations to all involved.

How do you look back on the experience?

It was fun, and we turned out a first-class product. Bob Dorough is a remarkable musician and the whole series reflects his taste and his excellence.

Anything you’d like to add? 

Nope.

11/19/21 addendum: Dave passed away 11/17/21.

Next: Essra Mohawk.

“Schoolhouse Rock” interview: songwriter/singer Lynn Ahrens

Introduction to the Schoolhouse Rock interview series (including the list of interviewees).

Among Lynn’s greatest Schoolhouse Rock hits:

M = wrote music
L = wrote lyrics
S = sang song

• “Interjections!” – ML
• “A Noun Is a Person, Place, or Thing” – MLS
• “Interplanet Janet” – MLS
• “The Great American Melting Pot” – ML
• “No More Kings” – MLS (co-sung with Bob Dorough)
• “The Preamble” – MLS

How old were you when you began writing for Schoolhouse Rock?

About 22.

What else were you doing professionally at the time?

I had just been hired as a secretary, working in the copy department of an advertising agency called McCaffrey and McCall. It was my first job out of college and I hoped to become a copywriter. That opportunity led to a career as a copywriter, followed by freelance careers as a TV writer (Schoolhouse Rock and many others), a jingle writer, a television producer of many network shows for young people, and ultimately a musical theatre writer. It all started there.

Where were you living at the time?

My ex-husband and I were sleeping on the floor of his sister’s apartment in Flushing, Queens. We had just arrived in NYC and were looking for jobs. (Flushing was not the New York City I had envisioned—it took me awhile to figure out where Manhattan was.) I answered two ads in the Times—one for an insurance company, one for an advertising agency. We were broke, and I would have taken the first job offered. Luckily, it was McCaffrey and McCall who offered first.

Were you already aware of Schoolhouse Rock when you were hired?

No, not at all.

How were you hired?

I took an old-fashioned typing test to get my secretarial position. Since I’ve never learned to type, I passed with my own four-finger method. I had to be shown how to use the huge Remington Selectric typewriter, complete with a self-correcting wheel. I used to bring my guitar to work and play and write songs on my lunch hour because I was bored silly as a secretary. One day one of the producers of Schoolhouse Rock, George Newall, passed by and casually asked me if I’d like to try writing a song for Schoolhouse Rock. I wrote “The Preamble,” it went on the air with me singing, and that was the beginning. It was dumb luck—being in the right place at the right time with the right person passing by.

Were you originally hired to write multiple songs, or just one?

Just one. Then they started asking for more.

Did you have any say in which topics you got to write about?

We were told the general category (American history, grammar, etc.) but we chose our own topics for the most part.

Did you propose any songs/topics that were rejected?

Don’t think so.

How long would it take you, on average, to write a Schoolhouse Rock song?

I’m a pretty fast writer. I’d guess to research and write a song would take me anywhere from a few days to a week.

Did you do your own research or were you presented with which facts to include?

Did my own.

Which Schoolhouse Rock song you wrote was your favorite and why?

I’m fond of “Interplanet Janet” because she’s an adventurous female character. (And I like the way I sound singing it.) Many years later I was asked to do a rewrite for schools because Pluto had been downgraded to a non-planet. I revised the lyrics as follows:

original: And Pluto, little Pluto, is the farthest planet Janet’s been. [in aired version, “ from our sun” replaced “Janet’s been”]
revision: And Pluto’s not a planet, but Janet thinks it should have been.

What is your favorite Schoolhouse Rock song you did not write?

I think maybe “Three Is a Magic Number.” Or maybe “Figure Eight.” They’re both beautiful.

What song you wrote (whether or not Schoolhouse Rock) is your favorite?

This is an impossible one to answer. Between television, film, theater, and concert work, my body of work is pretty big at this point.

Which Schoolhouse Rock song was your favorite to sing?

Probably “The Preamble.” It was the first one I wrote and sang and there was an incredible sense of glee standing at a microphone and learning how to use my voice.

Any funny stories from the recordings?

I once had to perform live with Bobby Dorough for an ABC-TV event called Funshine Saturday, on board a ship. I was supposed to play the guitar to accompany myself (something I had never done in performance before) and I expected there would be a stool or a chair onstage for me. There was nothing to sit on, and I had not brought a guitar strap. You try playing a guitar without a strap while standing. It is, very simply, impossible. That was my first and last public performance with a musical instrument.

Lynn and Bob recording 

“A Noun Is a Person, Place, or Thing”; 

photo courtesy of George Newall

What did you think of the finished animated musical shorts?

I thought they were brilliant—so simple and so witty, even with very limited animation.

What are your most cherished/funniest Schoolhouse Rock stories since (a reaction when someone you meet discovers you had a role in it, seeing its influence in an unexpected way, hearing a celeb you admire sing its praises, etc.)?

When I speak to theater students at colleges—people who want to become serious musical theater writers or performers—the biggest response to my bio usually comes for Schoolhouse Rock, followed closely by “What Would You Do For a Klondike Bar.” These seem to be cultural touchstones.

What are you working on these days?

[Recently] opened the musical Rocky on Broadway, now running at the Winter Garden Theatre. Will be premiering an original musical called Little Dancer at the Kennedy Center this coming fall, directed by Susan Stroman. And following that I’ll be premiering another new musical, based on the animated film Anastasia. (I wrote the original songs for the movie in 1998.)

What do you consider your career highlight to date?

Going to the Oscars for Anastasia was pretty amazing. Getting Rocky to Broadway via Hamburg, Germany has been life-changing. Ragtime, Once on This Island, and Seussical were all extraordinary experiences, for very different reasons. And of course Schoolhouse Rock, which made me a professional songwriter.

Where do you live?

New York.

What did you think when you first heard from me?

That you were confused about my having a son! [MTN: I read that here.]

Has anyone else ever interviewed about this? If so, when and for what publication?

Many times, and honestly I don’t recall where or when.

Do you still have any ongoing connection (professionally or personally) to Schoolhouse Rock?

I have both. Just had lunch with Bobby Dorough, George Newall, and Rad Stone to celebrate Bobby’s 90th birthday (!). And a couple of years ago, I provided four new songs, one of which was a sequel to “Interplanet Janet.”

Have you appeared at any fan conventions to sign autographs? If not, would you? 

No, and probably wouldn’t.

Anyone else connected with Schoolhouse Rock you suggest I interview?

I’m sure you know the key—George Newall, Rad Stone, Bobby Dorough and myself. Tom Yohe and Jack Sidebotham are sadly both gone, but Tom’s son (Tom Jr.) designed some of the most recent ones, and draws in a style very similar to his dad’s. Interestingly, when he was a little boy, Tom Jr. did one of the kid’s voices on my song “Interjections!” and his young son, Tommy III, sang on one of those recent ones I mentioned. So there are three generations of Tom Yohes associated with the show.

What is your perspective on the longevity and legacy of Schoolhouse Rock? 

It’s a beautiful show that has withstood the test of time and will continue to do so because it’s completely unaffected and innocent at heart. It amazes me how many different generations have been touched by the show.

How do you look back on the experience? 

Schoolhouse Rock taught me how to write songs on assignment, work with actors, work in a studio, record music, mix tracks, work with film and sound effects. It gave me the courage to go freelance as a young songwriter. Basically, it set me on the road to here.

Next: Dave Frishberg.

“Schoolhouse Rock” interview: songwriter/singer Bob Dorough

Introduction to the Schoolhouse Rock interview series (including the list of interviewees).

Among Bob’s greatest Schoolhouse Rock hits:

M = wrote music
L = wrote lyrics
S = sang song

• “Three Is a Magic Number” – MLS
• “Ready or Not, Here I Come” (fives) – MLS
• “Figure Eight” – ML
• “Conjunction Junction” – M
• “Lolly, Lolly, Lolly, Get Your Adverbs Here” – MLS
• “Verb: That’s What’s Happenin’” – ML
• “Mother Necessity” – MLS (among other singers)
• “The Shot Heard ‘Round the World” – MLS
• “Sufferin’ til Suffrage” – M

How old were you when you began writing/singing for Schoolhouse Rock?

I would have been already 50 years old in December of 1973. By this time, Schoolhouse Rock had been on television since February. So as I began those songs, I was perhaps 47 or 48. I was never overly-conscious of age, per se, so it didn’t matter.

1976

 

What else were you doing professionally at the time?

I was engaged in creating some advertising music, having already produced and arranged for two or three LPs of the hot group Spanky and Our Gang. Plus, doing any jazz engagements I could scare up.

Where were you living at the time?

Where I live now, with one foot still in Long Island City, where I previously lived. One of my advertising pieces made me enough money for the down payment on my Pocono house. Legally I had changed my residence to Pennsylvania by 1966, i.e., before I’d met David B. McCall [the advertising executive who conceived of Schoolhouse Rock].

What did you think of the Schoolhouse Rock concept when it was pitched to you?

I was excited but cautious. I thought the idea was a bit puerile but then McCall added a line that shook my timbers. He said “But don’t write down to the children.” I was excited by the idea of being able to write for children (I was already a father myself) [but] cautious [in case] they wanted simplicity, like a jingle or something. (It seems he’d already sought the help of other NYC jingle composers.) His second line opened the floodgates of my life and experience in jazz, blues, and pop music.

How were you hired? Were you originally hired to write multiple songs, or just one?

There was no hiring. When they heard “Three Is a Magic Number” they (McCall and his executives) said “Oh, that’s what we’re looking for. Do some more.”

Did you have any say in which topics you got to write about?

It started as an idea to put the multiplication tables to “rock” music and call it “Multiplication Rock.” McCall wanted to finance an LP recording of the songs but, of necessity, we only went one song at a time. The recording process did begin rather early with the first session and I was being paid as an arranger and band leader in the union-approved sessions.

Did you propose any songs/topics that were rejected?

Actually, the first session tackled two songs I had written for them, “Three Is a Magic Number” and “Do Your Sevenses.” Later on, “Do Your Sevenses” was rejected. There were no “topics” at this point—just numbers.

How long would it take you, on average, to write a Schoolhouse Rock song? Did you do your own research or were you presented with which facts to include?

The first presentation consisted of me traveling to their NYC office with a cassette or tape of my song. After McCall’s challenge, I took two weeks before I brought in the “Three” song. During this two weeks, I did my own research. I had a collection of diverse math books, including one on “The New Math.” I was a sort of amateur mathematician. I imagine most musicians are into numbers quite naturally. After the animation phase began, there were hired researchers for subjects like grammar, history, and science. There was also more control in the song subjects and, of course, other songwriters at hand.

You are single-handedly responsible for many of Schoolhouse Rock’s greatest hits. Which song you wrote was your favorite and why?

I’d have to say, although it’s like asking a mother to name her favorite child, that “Three Is a Magic Number” would be my fave, since it literally got me the job. By default I was eventually hired as musical director of the projects.

Which Schoolhouse Rock song was your favorite to sing?

“Lucky Seven Sampson,” my second song about seven, was and is a favorite—a signature song of mine because, in a way, it is the story of my life.

What is your favorite Schoolhouse Rock song you did not write?

“The Tale of Mr. Morton” by Lynn Ahrens. She has the knack for telling a story that also gets the message through.

Of all songs you have written (not just Schoolhouse Rock), which is your favorite?

Again, do I have to finger one of my children? I love “Nothing Like You,” which I wrote to a Fran Landesman lyric and which was recorded by Miles Davis.

Any funny stories from the recordings?

Sessions are always funny because musicians are a funny lot. However, it (the session) is also serious business. I had an opportunity to hire some of my friends and to become friends with some musicians I hadn’t known before. There was the pleasure of providing them with work in the studio.

What did you think of the finished animated musical shorts?

Well, imagine me, a 50-year old veteran of World War II and a hodgepodge musical career, watching Saturday morning cartoons. I was thrilled to hear my voice on the mysterious telly.

How were you paid—salary, flat fee per song, royalty per song, other?

I was paid very well. There was a fee for each accepted song and this fee increased as the years went by. Plus I made union wages whenever I was in the studio as leader/pianist, arranger, and sometimes even as copyist. My pal and partner Ben Tucker often got extra pay as contractor, as well as for playing the bass.

What are your most cherished/funniest Schoolhouse Rock stories since (a reaction when someone you meet discovers you had a role in it, seeing its influence in an unexpected way, hearing a celeb you admire sing its praises, etc.)?

We all get a thrill when Rachel Maddow talks about “I’m Just a Bill” or “Conjunction Junction.” It’s amazing how the oeuvre has penetrated the national consciousness. Of course I meet countless people in my jazz work that turn out to hear “the Schoolhouse Rock guy.” It’s like food, all the tribute and love I get from schoolteachers who still use the DVD in their classrooms. I admire all those brave schoolteachers.

What are you working on these days?

Mostly, I work on my jazz singing career/songwriting successes and the like. Without the stimulus of Schoolhouse Rock, I don’t write as many songs but, now and then, I get an idea and am able to flush it out into a song.

2011

What do you consider your career highlight to date?

Singing with Miles Davis.

Where do you live?

In Northeastern Pennsylvania, just 70 miles west of the Apple.

If you have kids/grandkids, what did they think of your Schoolhouse Rock songs?

My only child is Aralee. She was just 8 and 9 when I started Multiplication Rock. She was the perfect sounding board and [took] part in several recordings (the children in “The Four Legged Zoo” and the voice in “My Hero Zero”). She is now the principal flutist of the Houston Symphony Orchestra and also plays jazz. I have one grandson and several step-grandchildren and they all think I am the cat’s pajamas.

What did you think when you first heard from me?

Oy vey, another one! I have written several times about my take on the subject and consider it my property—even what I’ve written for you.

Has anyone else ever interviewed about this? If so, when and for what publication?

It’s in all my PR—there was that magnificent Oxford Magazine article. So many—I’ve forgotten.

Do you still have any ongoing connection (professionally or personally) to Schoolhouse Rock?

I am the only one who speaks for and performs Schoolhouse Rock. I work in elementary schools in my area and wherever. Sometime I combine a jazz club gig with one of the schools in that (whatever) city. George Newall, Gill Dyrli, and I sometimes work in educational or technological conventions. Dr. Dyrli was hired as a consultant starting with the Grammar days, I think. I called him the “Grammar Guru.” And George Newall was a musician in Mad Men disguise. He majored in composition and played jazz piano in college, as I did; but he was one of McCall’s major advertising writers. Later on, he contributed several songs including the fabulous “Unpack Your Adjectives.”

Have you appeared at any fan conventions to sign autographs? If not, would you?

Yes, the aforementioned educational conventions gave me lots of talks with fans and I have signed many, many autographs for kids from 90 to 2.

What is your perspective on the longevity and legacy of Schoolhouse Rock?

I think it is here to stay, in whatever form the media take.

How do you look back on the experience?

It is probable that a lot of the kids watching cartoons in the ‘70s grew up and perhaps worked in jazz bars as waiters, working their way through college or something. It was [in such bars], in the ‘80s, that one of them might say “I like your voice. It sounds familiar. Did you ever do any of that stuff called—what was it? Schoolhouse Rock?” This soon led me to insert the songs from Schoolhouse Rock into my jazz sets.

One of my shows is called Schoolhouse Rock and All That Jazz. Another, which was never produced, is a personal memoir called How I Wrote Multiplication Rock and Still Swung.

2011

Anything you’d like to add?

I receive more than my due credit as “the creator of Schoolhouse Rock,” etc. As the most visible representative of Schoolhouse Rock, I am out there, on the line, as it were, where I sing the songs and keep them alive.

But I owe a lot to Ben Tucker. He introduced my music to George Newall, who, as a jazz fan, used to hear Ben playing bass with Billy Taylor and/or Marion McPartland. This led to my first meeting with McCall after Ben told George that I was a guy who could “put anything to music.”

I owe so much to Tom Yohe for his brilliant animation design and to George Newall for his musical support and the fact that he gave me the title for “Conjunction Junction.”

Lynn Ahrens, for her brilliant lyrics and contributions to the project that made it such a classy act. She of course has since distinguished herself as a Broadway lyricist and librettist.

We owe much to the singing of Jack Sheldon. George says he is “the cartoon voice of the century.”

Then there is the songwriter, Dave Frishberg. He got off to a slow start with “I’m Just a Bill” as his sole contribution until we launched a fifth series called “Money Rock” where he practically stole the show.

We have not mentioned the BAM Theater Group—a bunch of “kids” who remembered Schoolhouse Rock and said, “Hey, let’s do a show.” Schoolhouse Rock Live! is now available for renting and producing in your own school or hometown, just like My Fair Lady or Bye Bye Birdie.

11/10/21 addendum: I neglected to note till now that Bob passed away 4/23/18.

Next: Lynn Ahrens.

“Schoolhouse Rock” interview: co-creator/producer Rad Stone

Introduction to the Schoolhouse Rock interview series (including the list of interviewees).

What was your role on Schoolhouse Rock?

At McCaffrey & McCall, I was the “suit.” Everyone else was a “creative.” The original idea was to make a Multiplication Rock remedial education LP. When Tom Yohe, my hero, heard the “Three Is a Magic Number” song, he drew a storyboard on it. When I saw that I felt it might be a possibility for my client the ABC Television Network. Saturday a.m. was a goldmine then.

1977, after winning second Emmy

How old were you when you began working on Schoolhouse Rock?

40.

What else were you doing professionally at the time?

Senior VP Account Supervisor on ABC.

Where were you living at the time?

New Canaan, CT.

What did you think of the Schoolhouse Rock concept when it was pitched to you?

Nice…for an LP.

How were you hired?

McCaffrey hired me away from Ogilvy to run ABC.

Did you have any say in which topics the series covered?

No.

Did you propose any songs/topics that were rejected?

No.

How long would it take you, on average, to produce a Schoolhouse Rock song?

Two weeks for a song and track. Two months for the video.

Which Schoolhouse Rock song/video was your favorite and why?

“Figure Eight” [sung by] Blossom Dearie; “Fireworks” with parts for Radford, Ian, and Charlotte Stone [his children].

Any funny stories from the recordings?

Not repeatable.

What did you think of the finished animated musical shorts?

A+.

Any controversy over Schoolhouse Rock?

Only on the business/ownership side.

What are your most cherished/funniest Schoolhouse Rock stories since (a reaction when someone you meet discovers you had a role in it, seeing its influence in an unexpected way, hearing a celeb you admire sing its praises, etc.)?

Celebs talk about “I’m Just a Bill,” “The Preamble,” “Conjunction Junction,” etc. all the time.

What do you consider your career highlight to date?

Four Emmys wasn’t too shabby (Yohe made me a producer).

Newall, Stone, Yohe, 1978

Where do you live?

North Carolina.

If you have kids/grandkids, what did they think of your Schoolhouse Rock role?

Lotsa T-shirts!

What did you think when you first heard from me?

What’s Charlotte up to? [Charlotte is Rad’s daughter, who connected me to him.]

Has anyone else ever interviewed about this? If so, when and for what publication?

Tom and George [Newall] had several.

Do you still have any ongoing connection (professionally or personally) to Schoolhouse Rock?

Digital distribution of Schoolhouse Rock. George and I run it. Couple of octogenarians. Bobby [Dorough]’s 90! ABC/Disney own it.

Have you appeared at any fan conventions to sign autographs? If not, would you?

We have and would.

What is your perspective on the longevity and legacy of Schoolhouse Rock?

It’s pretty secure with the two musicals with 300 performance dates a year.

How do you look back on the experience?

Pretty favorably, since I retired in 1991!

11/10/21 addendum: Today I learned that Rad passed away 3/29/17.

Next: Bob Dorough.

“Schoolhouse Rock” interview: co-creator/producer/songwriter George Newall

Introduction to the Schoolhouse Rock interview series (including the list of interviewees).

What was your role on Schoolhouse Rock?

In the early ‘70s, I was co-creative director of McCaffrey & McCall, a mid-sized New York advertising agency. It was my habit to get to the office around 7 a.m. Often, that would lead to my having coffee with another “early bird,” my boss, David McCall. (Dave had previously hired me as a copywriter at Ogilvy, Benson & Mather when he was copy chief there in 1963.)

One morning as we chatted, Dave told me about taking his kids on a dude ranch vacation. His son, Davey Jr., had been having a lot of trouble with multiplication tables in school, but Dave noticed that as they were riding along the kid was singing the lyrics to every rock & roll hit of the day. What if we produced an educational phonograph record of the multiplication tables set to rock music? Great idea. But Dave said he had no idea who could write that kind of music.

Actually, I didn’t either, but at the time I did a lot of hanging out at a club called the Hickory House on 52nd Street listening to Billy Taylor and his trio. One night I asked Billy’s bass player, Ben Tucker, if he knew anyone who could fill the bill. “Of course, “Ben said, “My partner, Bob Dorough.” Ben had started a jingle company with the longtime bop pianist. He told me of Bob’s recent record release This Is a Recording, in which Bob created songs from the words of mundane everyday objects like mattress tags, phone answering messages, and dictionary definitions of words like “love.”

We set up a meeting for Ben to bring Bob to meet Dave McCall. Dave told Bob his idea. Also in attendance was Tom Yohe, my co-creative director and head of the agency’s art department. Dave was very pointed in telling Bob not to talk down to kids as had been the case in most attempts to educate children through music (i.e. “The Singing Lady”). Bob then promised to return in a couple of weeks with a demo.

When Bob came back with “Three Is a Magic Number,” we were astonished. He had put the three times table into a context, based on the role of three in mathematics, religion, and even furniture-making.

So my role started as the catalyst in bringing Bob Dorough to Dave’s project. Subsequently, I continued as one of the producers, one of the composers, then co-executive producer, and after Tom Yohe’s untimely death in 2000, executive producer and president of our little subsidiary company, Scholastic Rock, Inc.

What else were you doing professionally at the time?

I ran the copy department of McCaffrey & McCall and supervised the creative work for half the agency’s clients. I had established a close working relationship with Tom Yohe when he began working with me on Hai Karate Aftershave (a product that I had “invented,” positioning it as a spoof of the Aqua Velva advertising campaign, “There’s Something About an Aqua Velva Man”).

Where were you living?

119 East 84th Street in Manhattan.

What did you think of the Schoolhouse Rock concept when it was pitched to you?

As a former musician, I was intrigued when Dave McCall first told me about it. But after hearing Bob Dorough’s first song, I was very excited.

Did you have any say in which topics the series covered?

Of course. I was one of the originators. And everything we did was collaborative. The atmosphere was always congenial, a reflection of the general atmosphere that made McCaffrey & McCall such a pleasure to work at. (I don’t recall any resemblance to what’s depicted on Mad Men even though I worked in the thick of that era!)

Did you propose any songs/topics that were rejected?

I don’t remember any specific incidents. The first song I wrote was “Unpack Your Adjectives,” then “Them Not So Dry Bones” and “Energy Blues.” In the early ‘90s, we produced an on-air series called Money Rock. I wrote “This for That,” a description of barter as an early form of currency.

When we produced the 30th Anniversary Edition DVD with Disney, I wrote the lead song, “I’m Gonna Send Your Vote to College.” It attempted to unravel the Electoral College. Tom Yohe, Jr. designed the animation. Jack Sheldon sang it on the soundtrack. (He also sang my song “Energy Blues” for the original Science Rock series.)

In 2007, I produced Schoolhouse Rock Earth for Disney Educational Productions.  I originally meant it to be a series on geography, but the idea morphed into a DVD that dealt with today’s environmental issues. I’ll discuss that further in answering one of your other questions

However, I think the song that I’m most proud of is one that I didn’t write. In one of our brainstorming sessions, I came up with the concept and title for “Conjunction Junction.” It took Bob’s genius to make it work. And Tom’s design to make it stand out as the all-time favorite among those who grew up with Schoolhouse Rock.

How long would it take you, on average, to produce a Schoolhouse Rock song?

I’d say getting a song written would take anywhere between three weeks and a month. Getting the lyrics vetted by an educational consultant, another week, and then getting ABC on board, another two. The actual production of the animation was initially quite lengthy. Back in the day, animation cels were hand painted. There were no computers to help.

Of course, during the production of Schoolhouse Rock Earth, approvals from ABC/Disney became much harder to get. It seems that the new executives who had grown up watching the series became more expert at evaluating potential songs than we were. And I found that songs were being judged by the standards that had taken hold in using exhaustive research to produce “effective” advertising. Too many MBAs in the process.

Examples: We could not get even one of the songs Dave Frishberg wrote approved. And not even one of Bob Dorough’s original song proposals. He and I had to collaborate on “Report from the North Pole.” His eccentric style didn’t fit into any of the cookie-cutter molds the MBAs had created. I did get a couple of songs that I wrote included: “You Oughta Be Savin’ Water,” “Windy and the Windmills,” and “Don’t Be a Carbon Sasquatch.”

In the beginning, when we were producing Multiplication Rock, Mike Eisner was baffled by the premise of “Little Twelvetoes” and didn’t think kids would understand the concept. But our educational consultant from the Bank Street School of Education called Eisner and told him not to underestimate the kids. He said “Okay, you’re the expert,” and we produced the film. Clearly, those days are over!

Which Schoolhouse Rock song/video was your favorite and why?

“Three Is a Magic Number.” That was the song in which Bob Dorough created the conceptual approach that took steered us away from the mere repetition of numbers and facts.

Any funny stories from the recordings?

I can’t remember any single moments of hilarity. But, by the grace of Bob, every recording session was fun to be a part of. Just getting to work with the likes of Dave Frishberg, Jack Sheldon, and Blossom Dearie in the relaxed atmosphere that Bob created when he ran the sessions was great fun.

What did you think of the finished animated musical shorts?

I thought most of them were wonderful. One visual standout was Roland Wilson’s design of “Little Twelvetoes,” one of Bob’s most unique concepts. And, of course, anything that Tom Yohe designed worked. He set what became the familiar “look” of Schoolhouse Rock. And after Tom’s death, the same can be said for his son Tom. (Tom Jr. is an artistic clone of his dad!) Tom Jr. designed “Mr. Morton” and “I’m Gonna Send Your Vote to College.”

Funny, to me there were songs that were successful because of the music, like the alliterative “Conjunction Junction.” Then there were songs in which the animated character was most memorable, like “I’m Just a Bill.” In it, Dave Frishberg’s lyric lays out the information in a relatively straightforward way. But Tom’s “funny little scrap of paper” is what keeps the songs popping up on MSNBC, late night, and even in Congress itself! Here, a southern senator uses Bill’s image to make a point I didn’t agree with:

Any controversy over Schoolhouse Rock?

Probably the most egregious case was ABC not putting Lynn Ahrens’s “Three Ring Government” on the air because of their fear that the FCC and Congress would resent being compared to a circus and threaten their broadcast license renewal.

Then there was the politically incorrect use of manifest destiny in “Elbow Room.” (It was a justification for expanding to the West at that time in our history!)

One galling moment for Tom and me was during the ‘90s when one of the former ABC Children’s’ Programming executives started marketing himself as the “Father of Schoolhouse Rock” when, in fact, it was he who had taken us off the air and replaced Schoolhouse Rock with a fitness series starring Mary Lou Retton.

Then, most recently, there were the reviews on iTunes of Schoolhouse Rock Earth that accused Disney of producing nothing but “climate change propaganda.”

What are your most cherished/funniest Schoolhouse Rock stories since (a reaction when someone you meet discovers you had a role in it, seeing its influence in an unexpected way, hearing a celeb you admire sing its praises, etc.)?

There are literally hundreds of these gratifying moments; from people I play golf with to Rachel Maddow and Wolf Blitzer and even President Obama himself!

I was invited to production of Schoolhouse Rock! Live, Jr. put on by the third grade of local school. (Schoolhouse Rock! Live was initially produced by Theatre Bam in Chicago. It ran briefly in NYC, off Broadway. And it is now licensed though Music Theater International. For almost ten years now, there have been a total of more than 500 individual productions a year—around the world! (Army bases, I suspect.)

But perhaps the most gratifying for me was this year at the Kennedy Center in Washington, DC. The center sponsored a “Schoolhouse Rock 40th Anniversary Singalong” featuring Bob Dorough. The event drew the biggest audience in the history of the center’s Millennium Stage (over 2,000 people!). And in the post-concert autograph session, I had the incredible experience of being told by three different Asian couples that their kids could never have learned English without Grammar Rock!

What are you working on these days?

Mostly my golf swing (a curse!). Also keeping track of merchandising deals made by ABC and helping my wife with her singing. I did have the fun of producing a CD with her right here in my basement. I did all the arranging and played all the parts in on my Mac. There was only one live “recorded in a studio” musician on the album, John Allred, a terrific trombonist.

Where do you live?

Hastings-on-Hudson, NY.

If you have kids/grandkids, what did they think of your Schoolhouse Rock songs?

I have one stepson. It’s hard to tell what he’s ever thinking!

Has anyone else ever interviewed about this? If so, when and for what publication?

Yes, many times. Several times with Bob on NPR. By our local newspaper, The Rivertowns Enterprise, which headlined it as an interview with “a rock star.” Florida State University’s FM station. Charlie Gibson on ABC in the ‘90s (with Tom) and Jane Clayson on the CBS Morning Show (with Bob and Jack Sheldon).

Do you still have any ongoing connection (professionally or personally) to Schoolhouse Rock?

I’m Executive Producer, President and Chairman of the Board of Scholastic Rock, Inc.

Have you appeared at any fan conventions to sign autographs? If not, would you?

Bob Dorough, our education consultant, Gil Dyrli, and I do seminars for educational groups, etc.

What is your perspective on the longevity and legacy of Schoolhouse Rock?

I’m pretty sure Schoolhouse Rock will be around after I’m gone. The films are evergreens and every year a brand new audience arrives in grade school.

12/7/22 addendum: Today it was announced that George, the last surviving member of the core team who produced Schoolhouse Rock, passed away 11/30/22.

Next: Rad Stone.

“Schoolhouse Rock” interviews: introduction

In 1973, in one way, Saturday morning started to look like Monday to Friday morning: it got educational. But not via school. Via TV.

That was the year that Schoolhouse Rock! (animated musical shorts teaching multiplication, grammar, science, American history, and more) debuted during commercial breaks on ABC.

Like many people my age, I consumed them as readily as the Frosted Flakes I enjoyed while doing so. And so like I have done before, I tracked down the talent who brought us these landmark, Emmy-winning cartoons.

This series features original interviews with most of the key surviving creators:

• George Newall, co-creator/producer/songwriter
• Rad Stone, co-creator/producer
• Bob Dorough, songwriter/singer
• Lynn Ahrens, songwriter/singer
• Dave Frishberg, songwriter
• Essra Mohawk, singer
• Lori Lieberman, singer

Among the talent involved with the series whom I am regrettably too late to reach:

• David McCall, co-creator/advertising executive, died 1999
• Tom Yohe, co-creator/lead animator, 2000
• Zachary Sanders, singer (“Verb: That’s What’s Happenin’”), 1992 (according to Wikipedia, but he doesn’t have his own entry)

If you, too, were a kid in the ‘70s, you had to wait a week until the next batch of Schoolhouse Rock goodies. However, we now live in the modern world, so with my Schoolhouse Rock series, each new installment will appear only one day after the previous.

First: George Newall.